So logically the 45 is more effective at stopping Humans, than the 9mm, data from lethal census. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Remember, people dont have health bars. One single shot from nea It is often said in sports talk, that the game is a game of inches. This is also true in life and death gun battles like the FBI Miami shootout. The 9mm leaves the muzzle on average at 1100 feet per second, NOT 1500. One or two out of every twenty or more perfect placement leaves me desirous of a heavy hitter. I believe politics carries the most weight.The military sidearm is the least political concern as far as what other weapons are available for them.The beretta was a good example.Far from the best weapon compared to sig & glock,it got us a deal to put missles in Italy . Fire Rate: 240 I dont want a light fast bullet that will over penetrate and possibly injure or kill an unintended. All rights reserved. In combat the one thing that does count is having more capacity, whether you miss or have more threats to neutralize, more capacity is a good thing no matter how you look at it. But for those of us that like to aim and make good hits Ill take the 45 as a primary with a compact 9 as a backup. Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. I assume that it is cost that is the main concern. So you can rely on us to provide quality pre-owned weapons backed by our famous guarantee. In the words of Dr. Peter Rhee, a leading trauma surgeon and a retired Navy captain with 24-years of service, talking about all handgun wounds including .45 ACP and 9mm, he said, A Handgun wound is simply a stabbing with a bullet. you should read TIFU my boss shot me reddit. The .22, meanwhile, leaves the muzzle at 2,690 feet per second, and slows to 840 feet per second at 500 yards. for every day carry. I also do not understand why the M&P was disqualified, but it could be that other manufacturers guns have already been eliminated as well. unless the guy is coming at you with body armor, if you have more than three bullets in your gun you dont really have a lot to worry about. Ships To Store. Now, I read the officers story. Patrick states that since vital organs are located deep within the body, it should be obvious that to ignore penetration and permanent cavity is to ignore the only proven means of damaging or disrupting vital organs. Remember it is massive blood loss that causes circulatory collapse. Riley has trained extensively under instructors such as: Rob Leatham, Mike Seeklander, Tim Herron, Scott Jedlinski, Matt Little, Kyle Lamb, Dave Spaulding, Jeff Gonzales, Bill Blowers, Chuck Pressburg, and others, amassing many hundreds of hours of formal shooting and tactics training. If you cant always hunt effectively with it, is it big enough? If it works for our troops no matter where it is made thats the one we want. The results may surprise many as it did myself. For damage; within 50m against soft targets I want to say it goes 7.62 >.45 > 9mm. The ambulance took him away. Example; a bb to the eyeball is very effective. That will put anything down.But if it comes time to kill a man should there be any fun in it. Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. With practice almost anything is possible. The FBI subsequently transitioned from revolvers to semi auto .40 caliber handguns with S&W .40 caliber bullets (a slightly shorter version of the 10mm round). They have to show the bean counters proof for the money to fund the switch of caliber. I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1 and am quite crafty with it. Hmmmmsince there probably wont be any takers how about we all shake hands and realize were all bound brothers with the same interest. The one magor factor that keeps deciding the outcome is if the victim or assailant has the actual ability to kill. Mine is easily concealable, accurate and has never failed to function. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Small grip,,Low recoil,,, easy conceability One size does Not fit all. What type of bullet is being fired? For the sake of interest, some indicators of the penetrative powers of various types of ammunition follow: Virtually all calibres (excepting air weapons) will penetrate the tread or side wall of a motor vehicle tyre. Not aim shoot. 15 -25 yards lol I can hit you in between the eyes with my co2 bb pistol. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. Then get ready for a gunfight. Scratch expensive 45s. Penetration of 7" pine boards for various pistol calibres: Illustrative penetration capabilities of a 30-06 full -jacketed rifle bullet at a velocity of 2700 ft/s and at a range of 200 yd: 1" of armour plate 7" of gravel 4.5" of brick 4" of concrete 32" of oak wood 6.5" of dry sand 7" of moist sand 26" of loam 24" of clay 19" of loose earth 60" of 1" pine boards, Continue reading here: General wound ballistic concepts, FREE Military Tough 6-in-1 Tactical Survival Knife, Free 2nd Amendment Gun Rights Silver Coin, Green Beret Master Sergeant Home Security Checklist, Winning Plays Texted To Your Phone That Comes Directly From An Elite Team Of Sharps, Ballistics Theory Straight Line Muzzle To Target, Internal External and Terminal Ballistics, High Standard Pistols - Firearms identification, Drop In Auto Sear - AR15 to M16 Conversion. I like to study real world crime stats and self-defense incidents; and study hundreds of shootings every year. I guess I might be a little old school, 1911 45, M1 Grand in 3006, or M1A in a 308, these are older, but they have not made better guns or calibersI still have a glock and some 9s, but only because If I do have to use it I dont want to lose my 1911, and yes I have a AR15, but still like the A1 more. I also could not afford the astronomical price (astronomical in my current budget) shops are now asking for a 4 inch Ruger Redhawk. If, God forbid, you are ever in a situation where you are required to use your handgun, there is, to put it mildly, a great deal at stake. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. As to which will stop a human fasterhavent a darn clue. This was an interesting discussion. The human body experiences four main types of acid-based disorders: metabolic acidosis, metabolic alkalosis, respiratory acidosis, and respiratory alkalosis. Would the same shot with More bullet have made a difference i think not. Im sorry but a 225 grain bullet going 850 1200+ fps vs a 127 grain bullet going 975 1150 fps is going to be more effective and deadly. Nobody I know whos had to use issue 9mm M882 Ball is terribly impressed with it, either for the way it penetrated light cover like auto bodiesadmittedly, if you are shooting at someone protected by an automobile chassis, you should have brought a rifle, if not a grenade launcher with HEAT rounds or something belt-fed with the black-tip ammo that have the depleted uranium coresor for the way bad people reacted to being shot with it, which was usually not at all for quite some time barring a hit to the brain or spinal cord, or multiple hits, as in the whole magazine and maybe another. Do Not Sell My Personal Information. Practice, practice, practice. With that in mind The most lead I can force through the air, the better. Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. And while you might think that lethality by caliber is the main factor you should be looking for, the simple fact is that while a 22 rimfire is deadly, it is far from the best round for incapacitating an assailant in the here and now. Still, I think when we're talking about pistol caliber handguns, it's pretty hard to measure any substantial accuracy differences when we're rarely shooting at distances greater than 15-25 yards if that. Maximum velocity is achieved only at barrel exit, then slows during flight through the viscous median known as our environment (air). If the first bullet ricochets off the windshield, the succeeding rounds will make it through. There have been several attempts by ballistics engineers to increase the wounding ability of a round. The penetration of various materials can be of great assistance in the investigation of shooting incidents. We do, however, have reliable information from labs with regard to how much tissue rounds destroy. You have bo clue what youre talking about other than maybe your steel target fell over a little easier with a heavier bullet at the range. I have 9 mm and I own mostly 45 ACPs, I can conceal a combat Commander with a small of the back holster with shorts T-shirt and flip-flops and nobody will know its there. On a side note, this is the recent trend move away from larger calibers to smaller ones. Bottom line, if you come at me and I shoot you with my 9 mm or my 45, or my 380, its going to hurt like hell! Fortunately, physiological factors are often not the deciding factor. We souped up the 38 special to produce it .The 10 Auto was dumb ed down to create the 40sw. Now marine I hope your watching now instead of using glock 19 in a 9mm counterpart here is a better suggestion why dont you use a glock 21 4th gene to insure ur fellow colleges a better a faster on the spot accuracy with zero recoil it will enable them to be more successful in hitting targets. The FBI claims a bullet has no hydrostatic shock capabilities until at least 2200-2400 fps. Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. Well Obama wants his pay raise and his retirement increased. My department stopped using them in 45 cal because there were enough malfunction to stop. Never held a weapon till boot camp. As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. The wider bullet also creates a bigger cavity in whatever it passes through. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! This study is thus inherently flawed, as it ranks large shallow wounds above deeper ones. I carry a 9 as one of my CCW, a Sig P938. I think the armchair warriors need to think about how a pistol is barely effective in military situations. Sources say Jimmy Lam used a TEC-9 style pistol, illegal to sell in the state for almost two decades. As for accuracy, I hear a lot of my friends talking about the accuracy of their 45s over a distance compared to my 9 mm, but no one to date has outshot me on the range, and almost all of my friends have switched to a 9 millimeter in the past few years. I like my Colt GOV. I think everyone should think back to why the 1911 was made. Bullets can also increase the surface area that transfers energy to targets by expanding, as in the case of hollow-point rounds. And anyways I own a Kimber Colt 45 1911 with a muzzle breaker on it steel slide aluminum from and honey comb grips, I also own for my conceal Walther Q4 with tactical barrel. You would think he would know a thing or two about firearms and ballistics with a title like that. Accounting for human anatomy and the fact that an agent may fire at a suspect from a variety of angles, it was established that 12 inches was the minimum We had a good chuckle out of that one. It is the concept that will underlie this entire article. Do any one you know carry just ball rounds in their handguns? He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. .45 in Nam and owned one for several years. WebAs shown in Fig. We began clearing the location and papa was lying face up in nothing but his white-e-tieties. His chest was gurgling and slurping. Do you really think that all of SOCOM is using rifles and SMGs, and the Marines are using pistols? This is why, when training with a firearm, you should train for the center of mass, regardless of target anatomy or angle. In the last 30 years, the FBI has moved from .38/.357 caliber revolvers to 9mm semi-automatics. Most people shot with long gun rounds they tend to be doa . The point here is this: it is okay that the Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command has decided to issue only Glock 19's. Note how velocity is squared, and mass is halved. It has a velocity of 1200-1600 ft/s and energy of 140-160 Joules. You do your failure drill. 1SGT. of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. While psychological factors incapacitate more assailants than physiological factors, they are also the primary reason for a failure to incapacitate. In this article, we will present what we believe to be the most credible information regarding wound ballistics from studies conducted by the FBIs Firearms Training Academy in legendary Quantico, Virginia. round, you can see all three effects. I notice one parameter that seems to be ignored. A 35-45 psi The former is by far the leading reason for handgun ownership. I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. The .357sig does have very impressive ballistics. It turns out, however, that things arent that simple. Was the 357 mag. I have yet to see any really legit fair and unbiased comparison of the 9mm and 45acp calibers. WebOP you had it right for penetration, 7.62 > 9mm > .45. A bullet entering an enemys body does damage in two ways. I see no problem with any branch of the U.S. military using the 9mm, but they need to go back and annul the Hague Commission signing. Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. But a .45/70 at 1597 fps equals a .270 Win at 3200 fps ballistically on impact and follow through. Its unlikely Id ever have to shoot at anything other than paper targets. Okay 9s are cool, hold a lot of rounds, small recoil, cheap to shoot and buy. The .223 weighs in at 55 grains, while the .22 is usually 45 grains or smaller. Generous readers sustain our work. When you consider that almost all wounds from pistol caliber firearms were inflicted with SMGs, and when you consider that the most common German 9mm round issued during the war used a 90gr steel-core bullet loaded to do over 1400 ft/sec from pistol length barrels and 1800+ out of SMGs, and you compare this to the lumbering 230gr .45 caliber bullet that had less than half that velocity, it seems pretty plausible. The P227 Tacops holds 14 rounds in the mag and 1 in the chamber so 15 rounds is similar to the Glock. I will never personally take a life if I have the chance to stop someone with a non lethal GSW. Leave it to a bunch of idiot Marines to bring a pistol to a rifle fight. 25 yard 1.52 off hand 5 rnd groups on the nose. Such as my Kimber and Walther and can never forget the CZ shadow 2. Now lets talk about wound cavities caused by different caliber handgun rounds. The gunman was able to inflict such extensive damage from across a baseball field because he was using a semiautomatic rifle that may have qualified as an assault weapon, akin to a standard infantry combat weapon. .45 ACP FMJ doesnt normally make bad people flop to the ground instantaneously unless it hits the brain or spinewhich is probably what happened, given his skills. A high-muzzle bullet, however, destroys whole areas of body. Para Ordnance 12-45, officer size 1911 .45acp with 12 or 14 rd mags. The bear was shot in the head through the screen.it was a one shot stop but needed another round to finish him off. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook, Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition. The 9mm travels a great deal faster than the .45, with average muzzle velocity averaging between 1100-1200 FPS. The latest testing shows that modern 9mm performs pretty much as well as the other common semi-auto options, and since it carries more rounds and is easier to shoot (and I dont care who you are, but it is easier/faster to shoot compared to the larger calibers), it is fairly sound logic to select the 9mm. It enables struggling shooters to attain better weapon control/shot placement, and permits skilled shooters to be faster and more accurate. A tenured officer responded to a violent male mental on a *TD bus. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. Take it this way, someone shoots at you, you at them. Officer needs help!! Web9mm vs 45 ACP, WE END THE DEBATE. If you kill one, you take one out of battle. However, others say that the lowly .22 LR has the best stopping power, since it stays in the targets body and bounces around, shredding arteries and punching holes in internal organs. Give me a 45 any day! At 8yoa my dad taught me to shoot with a 1911. /9mm has a lot more options when it comes to ammo but I prefer my Springfield XD .45 or my Kimber Custom II 1911. Fragmentation cannot reliably be counted upon with handgun wounds because of the comparatively low velocity of handgun rounds. But thats a subject for another article. Marine Force Recon Vietnam Vet. WebBlack Talon is a brand of hollow-point pistol and rifle ammunition introduced in 1991 by Winchester, primarily intended for law enforcement and personal defense use.Black Talon rounds were known for the unique construction of the bullet and its sharp petal shape after expansion following impact with tissue or other wet media. Secondly, if you you tube ballistic testing of the 9mm and 45acp, lets say using Federal HSTs you will see that the 9mm round is more than capable and every bit as functional as the 45 in getting the job done. But I do like Cor- Bon, and Glaser POWRBALL BY COR-BON. This whole conversation for over 2+ years is hilarious. The Department of Defense has recently been taking a hard look at the sidearms and sidearm calibers issued to today's military personnel on the front lines. Anything else is a simple failure to prepare. This recent policy change and operational change means the U.S. Marine Corps' special arm of SOCOM (U.S. Special Operations Command) has also come to terms with the debate of 9mm vs. .45ACP. .380 9mm .40 10mm or .45 one well placed shot and dead nothing really better about each round besides power and penetration they all kill in skilled hands and do there job in certain situations there is no better round than the one you train with period! The comparisons that I have seen conducted under those conditions seem to be pretty equal. Take this for what its worth. Which things can be argued, but more important is being able to handle what you have. Its a freaking tarantula. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition, it will cause greater trauma.. As blood moves through the body, it picks up extra fluid, chemicals and waste. I have found that I prefer the 9mm as an EDC concealed carry. Moreover, law enforcement shootings typically result in only one or two solid torso hits on adversaries. Mr. Police, f.b.i., train. 5.56 NATO in .223 Rem could result in failures. Where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. I was in the military and was law enforcement. The average criminal etc. After reading your article, I had to 1.) But thats me. Im very confident a 45 caliber would have been one and done. I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. You, ordinary walking around citizen are likely to be accosted from very close range, within say 10 feet to up close. Of course providing as to the type of ammo. Cool story for real. All studies are greatly flawed and there is no serious pursuit of better studies due to the enormous difficulty, if not impossibility, of scientifically analyzing real-life shooting incidents. I carry a 9mm myself, and train to rapid fire. Having had lots of time with all 3 (9mm, 40 s&w and 45acp) yes the 9 is easier to fire and carries more ammo but in my experience you need that extra ammo to stop the threat. And I suspect it could very well be the Sig P320 as it is the epitome of modular.. Patricks treatise outlines the following factors to consider regarding handgun bullets: Accordingly, the best handgun rounds will reliably cause a permanent cavity that will penetrate the soft tissue of an adversary between 12 and 18 inches. But I have some serious doubts about his understanding of external and terminal ballistics. D.R. I sure do love 45acp though. These are rounds designed to expand upon impact with a soft target. I Have hair and an angular face. I just had to get my 2 cents in. I can shoot consistently accurately. Your shot placement will be perfect. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. Lexipol. This translates to a simple formula for shooting success: practice, practice, practice. Second Media Inc., 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. The debate isnt settled. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. That said today I only carry my 5th gen Glock 19. Im sure, given the choice, MARSOC troops would take a 15 round FNX45 over a Glock 15. Fire Rate: 1,000 rounds/minute. What i find interesting is that so many people have so much to say and they have never been in actual shoot out. I have several. Really late to the discussion. In other words, negative acceleration and a non-linear path are both occurring. Fair testing without the bias of budgets and the need to carry what every one else is carrying would be quite refreshing and lend more to the safety of the officer or soldier who may be fighting his or her life. But you have no proof that the .45 ACP will work that much better. Come On People!! JavaScript is disabled. I am not going to address the whole military, spec-ops, battlefield blah blah. Mainly because it is polymer from and not as well build and equipped as the Walther Q4. Also another fact is that my Kimber Colt 45 actually has less recoil than my 9mm with an aluminum frame when my 9mm has a full steel from. 9mm. Plenty of gang shootings. I cant compare to 9mm but I still want to carry 45acp. Taurus 45 You hit it dead on its not the cal thats most important its what you can do with it. When it does occur, it is not a significant factor in wounding. We carried 19 rounds of 9mm in combat. And other trauma surgeons are on record as saying that they cannot tell the difference between wounds caused by 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. In any event, I used that data when shopping for a lighter and more easily concealed EDC than my .357 magnum revolver and hi-cap .45 ACP.

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